People throw the phrase ‘battle rifle’ or ‘battle carbine’ around and it always sounds a little…weird…to me. I suppose you may want to differentiate between youre hunting rifle that you knock down deer with and your ‘just in case’ FAL thats sitting in the closet, but ‘battle rifle’ always sounds kinda hokey. But..what else do you call it? Your ‘social rifle’? I usually just call it a ‘rifle’ and, maybe, depending on the context, ‘defensive rifle’. Anyway, Friend Of The Blog, Ryan at TSLRF, has been mulling a .308 defensive rifle. I threw my two cents in and suggested the PTR.
The PTR is a fairly accurate copy of the HK91. There are several copies of HK rifles out there, and there are a few ‘niche’ or ’boutique’ makers who make a very nice (and very expensive) product, but in terms of mass-market stuff its either Century or PTR. My feelings on Century is that it is the ballistic equivalent of treasure hunting at the sight of old outhouses….you might find a jewel once in a while, but most of the time what you find is crap. (Not withstanding their new milled AK which I may have to get two or three of.)
Personally, I rather like the FAL. But economically, if you’re wanting a .308 semiauto for the day the wheels fly of civilization, and you’re on a budget, you would be hard pressed to find a better value.
Eliminating the exotic stuff, here’s the rundown of whats available in .308 these days that fits the bill and isn’t some super-rare oddball thing (like a .308 Galil or Valmet): AR-10, FAL, PTR, M1A and maybe one of the AK-pattern .308s. I’m limiting this discussion to stuff based on platforms that have been around a while…the AR-10 being the newest. Stuff like the KelTec RFB or other gunny-come-lately need to be around for a while so we can see if they have legs or not.
Whats your budget for the gun and it’s necessary gear? Well, let’s say, mmmm, $1250. Let’s also not cheap out and go with the absolute cheapest [rifle/mag/etc] we can find. We want what works. So, while the Century FrankenFAL may be 1/2 the price of a DSA, it is not a contender because it’s simply a crapshoot in terms of its manufacture. LWRC and SIG don’t have anything for less than $1250 at the moment. S&W has some ‘bargain’ AR-10 rifles but nothing on Gunbroker is less than $1250, and while Remington makes one as well I’m holding off on any of their new stuff until they get their act together in terms of QC.
A basic rifle suitable for defensive use, not a target, match or hunting gun:
More @ Notes From The Bunker
The big problem with this whole Idea IMO . Is that every time "joe buffalo" buys himself a .308 he plunks a 40X scope on top of it , starts hoarding match ammo and "tuning it". Then bitches that the rifle is junk when it won't hit a sub MOA group at 500 yards . That kinda undermines the whole "infantry rifle" idea. The NUMBER ONE stupid question I get about my .30 cal infantry rifle when I go to Knob Creek (nearby) is ; Why don't you have a scope on that sniper rifle? (anything bigger than 5.56 is a "sniper") This from guys with 10x scopes on .22s. The 5.56 fad has ruined the American shooter.---Ray
ReplyDeleteI have a scope on Dixie's .22, but none on my toys.
DeleteBingo!
DeleteYeh; The only "scoped" rifles I own are my 30:06 "deer rifle" ( Mauser 2000 bought at the PX in Vietnam in 1966 or 67 by an Army sniper. I got it cheep from his estate) and my Mossburg 442 that I almost always shoot with Lyman Micro's.---Ray
DeleteMauser 2000 bought at the PX in Vietnam in 1966 or 67 by an Army sniper.
DeleteMaybe I'm not reading it correctly, but you seem to state that he bought the rifle at the PX in Vietnam, correct? I don't remember seeing guns for sale there, but maybe his relatives heard it wrong.
They could have . My brother thinks he bought it when he got home. But I have seen published photos of US Army troopers in country carrying Winchester Mod.70's and Mauser 3000 rifles bought at the PX. Where did they sell them , Vietnam or Okinawa? I just don't know; and the man died of agent orange related complications five years ago. His wife says he always maintained that he got the rifle "overseas". So we may never know unless the Army has kept PX sales records.---Ray
DeleteMy brother thinks he bought it when he got home.
DeleteI'd go for that and I saw someplace where they came out in 1969 which is when I got out, but still used the PX until the end in '75. Bought my Christmas tree at the Embassy one in Manila in '74 as I was there for Cobalt treatment. There were individual weapons in Vietnam, though. Many AK's came back by dismantling them and putting in speakers of large stereo systems.
http://www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=272&highlight=cobalt
Another "defensive" or "reactionary" rifle would be the Ruger Gunsite Scout. Yeah, its not a sexy semi but didn't a wise man once say to fear the guy that has but one rifle because he KNOWS how to use it? Besides, it wouldn't raise any eyebrows taking it hunting. Besides, if a semi is what you're pinning for then it IS worth it to save the scratch for a M1A scout. Forgo that vacation, eating out, cable television etc and pony up quality gear.
ReplyDelete-Some Other Guys 2Cents
I've looked at that many times. Right on out of the box.
DeleteI am kinda partial to ACOG's.
ReplyDeleteBob
III
I bet, but expensive. :)
DeleteEOtech holographic sight sitting on top of my AR10. Don't intend to put anything else on it. Don't intend to make shots beyond 200 yards with it. Save the 40x scopes and put them on the remington 700s and browning xbolts. Those are the ones you get pissed when not hitting sub MOA groups at 500.
ReplyDeleteK2
III
Those are the ones you get pissed when not hitting sub MOA groups at 500.
Delete:)
308 is a nice round. I've got an HK91 that I got from a friend back in the 80's. I put the HK factory claw mount and a 4 power scope on it. I'm not a "sniper" by any means - I generally subscribe to what the Swiss call "rasches einzelfeuer" - rapid semi-auto. 1 carefully aimed single shot. If it hits and produces results you can stop. If not then 4 or 5 shots at a steady rhythm - don't try to see bullet impact and don't change point of aim.
ReplyDeleteThe Swiss army is taught to shoot this way at all distances - it works. Y'all give it a try sometime.
Red in OleVirginny
Interesting and didn't know that. Thanks.
DeleteQuoted from an article on a German forum from some time ago - one of the places I learned about this -
ReplyDelete"The goal of the concept is therefore to provide the shooter with the means to hit a man-sized target in a short amount of time without the need to know the exact distance and without making any adjustments, freeing him of unnecessary choices and removing the need to fiddle with the weapon system under stress.
The next step is how to estimate distance.
When we look at a target with our Mk1 eyeball and can see any kind of detail, that is a close target.
Details would be stuff like gender, hair color, hair style, general type of clothing (e.g. wearing a jacket or not), other equipment (e.g. backpack, rifle) etc..
With a close target, we will aim at the hip, since generally the target will be within ~300 meters and our bullet will impact above the line of sight and thus somewhere on the torso.
When we cannot make out any of those details and are just able to see a person, we have a far target.
With a far target, we aim at the neck/head, since our bullet will impact below the line of sight – again, somewhere on the torso.
The beauty of this is that we do not have to worry about the grey area between close and far targets.
As we approach the end of close distance, our point of impact moves closer to our point of aim – we will still hit the hip or groin area.
If we go to the far target hold too early, the bullet will not hit below our line of sight, but rather high on the torso or in the shoulder/head area – no big loss, is it?
Basically, all we are doing is taking the Battlesight Zero concept and adding a single step of complexity: instead of always aiming at the center of a given target, we aim at the lower end of the target at close range and the higher end at long range.
Next comes correction for wind.
For a close target, we do not correct for wind at all.
For a far target, we correct half the target´s width for weak wind. Weak wind is wind that can be felt on exposed skin, but will not significantly sway trees or make clothing flap about.
According to the definition of weak wind, we now know what strong wind would be – anything noticeably stronger than weak wind.
In strong wind, we hold a full target´s width into the wind, i.e. we imagine a "virtual twin" right beside our target and hold at its neck/head area." end quote
I love a good rifle discussion - feels like Memorial Day should.
Red in OleVirginny
Thanks and that's more my speed. :)
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